The End of Time and the 11th Doctor.

[Hawk_v3]

I really liked this episode 'cos it wraps up a lot of questions that have been running throughout the entire series.

O'course, there will now be loads of people bitching about the changes, and how "x" shouldn't have been revealed/altered/whatever. Screw those huys, I've enjoyed this ep more than the last season end eps.

[5BASS]

wasn't that a rerun?

[Ƨɒlƚy]

No. But I missed it, so rageface.

[Hawk_v3]

wasn't that a rerun?

Nope, it's the death of David Tennant's Doctor.

[Lumy]

I really hate how they showed Captain Jack drowning his sorrows in some Mos Eisley cantina knock-off.  It was a real slap in the face for how they ended Children of Earth.  Russel T. Davies has to ruin everything doesn't he?  I suppose his philosophy is that he'll ruin it himself before someone else can.

[Gargravarr]

I really hate how they showed Captain Jack drowning his sorrows in some Mos Eisley cantina knock-off.  It was a real slap in the face for how they ended Children of Earth.  Russel T. Davies has to ruin everything doesn't he?  I suppose his philosophy is that he'll ruin it himself before someone else can.

What's wrong with that? Jack had a seriously hard time throughout CoE and wanted to get away from it all. It's pretty clear he was just trying to live his life as he used to. What were you expecting him to do?


I really liked these episodes as a whole. David Tennant's last moments (including the truth of "he will knock four times") were brilliant and what little we saw of Matt Smith was pretty good.

There were only a few things that concerned me.

1. It seemed to imply that we wouldn't be seeing any of the companions again. Okay, so Donna and Rose's stories have pretty much finished (thankfully, in Rose's case), and Sarah Jane & Jack will continue to appear in the Sarah Jane Adventures and Torchwood (though I would like to see Jack turning up again in DW), but what about Martha & Mickey? I know the new Doctor will come with new companions, but I hope it's not the last we see of those two. I especially want to know how Martha went from being engaged/married to some doctor to being married to Mickey of all people.

2. How final everything seemed with The Master. First he actually gets killed off in Last of the Time Lords, then that gets fixed with a botched resurrection in End of Time so he's effectively dying all the time, then he seems to get locked into the Time War along with the other Time Lords. I mean, surely they can't avoid bringing him back at some point, seeing as he's one of the Doctor's biggest enemies, I just don't see how they can do it again after this. He probably won't be played by John Simm anymore, but still...

3. How final everything with the Time Lords seemed. The whole second episode just said to me "Yeah, you guys are never seeing this lot again". I mean, they were never the most pleasant race in the series, but to turn them into essentially a bunch of pseudo-daleks (wanting to eradicate the rest of the universe just to preserve their own society)... I'd just liked to see more of them. But since Stephen Moffat apparently isnt a very big fan of them, I guess that won't happen anytime soon if at all...

Also, is anyone else annoyed by the lack of solid details about the Time War? We keep hearing about odd names like the Cruciform, the Nightmare Child, the Could've-Been King, etc. but nothing gets even the slightest bit of elaboration.


Still, negativity aside, I'm looking forward to the new series, and I'm sure Matt Smith will give a decent performance.


Oh, and Bernard Cribbins is an absolute legend.

[Ƨɒlƚy]

Well, I finally saw both episodes. But apparently I never saw the one where they resurrected the Master, so I missed a little of the background there. I think I'll have to find that.

Also, damn. They really have just basically said that nobody should be using the Master anymore. After all, they explained the beats, they brought him back from the dead, and then they killed him off again. They've damn well worn the character out.

Also, I think that the new Doctor...is kinda ugly. Is it just me?

[Gargravarr]

Well, I finally saw both episodes. But apparently I never saw the one where they resurrected the Master, so I missed a little of the background there. I think I'll have to find that.

Also, damn. They really have just basically said that nobody should be using the Master anymore. After all, they explained the beats, they brought him back from the dead, and then they killed him off again. They've damn well worn the character out.

And that's my point about the Master. It seems like he's been written out for good, but the Doctor still has two incarnations to go after Matt Smith, and surely they can't go that long without having the Master popping up at some point. I mean, he's one of the Doctor's three biggest enemies along with the Daleks and the Cybermen, and is the closest thing the Doctor has to a proper nemesis/rival.

It's going to take a good writer to bring him back plausibly, especially without the other Time Lords coming along for the ride, and he probably won't be played by John Simm again. A shame, but there you go. He had a good run.

Also, I think that the new Doctor...is kinda ugly. Is it just me?

I wouldn't say ugly. A bit odd-looking, yeah, but he's not the first Doctor to have that quality. Apparently Steven Moffat attempted to find someone older, but felt he was right for the role.

[Lumy]

What's wrong with that? Jack had a seriously hard time throughout CoE and wanted to get away from it all. It's pretty clear he was just trying to live his life as he used to. What were you expecting him to do?

I expected him to seclude himself in dead space as a form of punishment for the horrible things he has done,  Not moping about in some bullshit version of the Mos Eisley cantina.  He did not have a hard time in CoE; he was in complete control the entire time.  CoE was where he lost the last bit of his humanity and any further mention of him should only reinforce this.

[Gargravarr]

What's wrong with that? Jack had a seriously hard time throughout CoE and wanted to get away from it all. It's pretty clear he was just trying to live his life as he used to. What were you expecting him to do?

I expected him to seclude himself in dead space as a form of punishment for the horrible things he has done,  Not moping about in some bullshit version of the Mos Eisley cantina.  He did not have a hard time in CoE; he was in complete control the entire time.  CoE was where he lost the last bit of his humanity and any further mention of him should only reinforce this.

So being blown up from the inside, enduring extreme pain regrowing his whole body from just a few scraps, almost being buried in concrete, finding out that the kids he gave to the 456 were being used as drugs and kept in a state of living death, and finally having to sacrifice his grandson and either killing or driving away for good the only family he had wasn't having a hard time? Oh, and Ianto's death, which he probably views as his own fault.

Yes, I suppose handing the children over in the first place was his own choice (or at least his choice to follow the orders), I'll give you that, but it doesn't mean he can't feel guilty about it, expecially once he found out exactly what was being done to them. As for the grandson thing, what was he supposed to do? Kids all over the world were being rounded up to be given to the 456 and he had to act quickly to stop it. He couldn't exactly wait around trying to find a kid no-one would miss.

EDIT: I just remembered he had to hand over the original children in order to get a cure for a disease that would allegedly kill 25 million people. Yes, he still chose to follow the orders, but he had a pretty good reason to.

If he had "lost the last bit of his humanity" he wouldn't have left earth in the first place. He would've just continued like he was on earth, not feeling any guilt over what he did because it was for the greater good. He left earth so that he wouldn't have to do stuff or make decisions like that anymore. At least for a while, anyway. Not the most mature or sensible way of dealing with it, but certainly a believeable one.

If you're expecting him to live away from all other civilisation in self-exile, then that doesn't sound like Jack to me at all.

[Lumy]

It sounds like the Face of Boe.

[Gargravarr]

It sounds like the Face of Boe.

Even if Jack does eventually become the Face of Boe, that doesn't mean he's secluded himself from all contact. Hell, Boe's first (chronological) appearance is in a news report in The Long Game saying he's had kids, so it's clear he's something of a celebrity. And even in his actual first appearance, The End of the World, people clearly know who he is and aren't surprised to see him on Platform One. Doesn't sound like the actions of a guilt-ridden self-punishing hermit to me. In fact, the only time Boe could really be said to hide himself away is in Gridlock.

But even apart from all that, Jack is a pretty popular character in the revived series. Did you really expect him to never show up in either DW or Torchwood again for the rest of both of their runs? Because that's what it sounds like you're asking for.

[Lumy]

My point is that he shouldn't have been moping about like he's just been dumped.  And in order to become the face of Boe, he has to completely disassociate himself from his Identity as Captain Jack Harkness.  The first step in that would be the death of his humanity, which occurred when sacrificed his grandson to fix his mistake.  He didn't care about his grandson or even his daughter when he did that.  They're just going to die in a few dozen years anyway.  And it was at that moment when he realized just how much of a monster he was becoming.

And he doesn't have to be in isolation, that was just an example I threw out there for his self imposed exile from the human species.

Yeah, fan-service... That's the best reason to do anything.  /sarcasm.   Jack really was only a good character in the First season of Doctor Who.  After that, his charm had worn off.  They should write him out on a high note, not keep him on just because a guest appearance would bring in viewing figures.

[Gargravarr]

My point is that he shouldn't have been moping about like he's just been dumped.  And in order to become the face of Boe, he has to completely disassociate himself from his Identity as Captain Jack Harkness.  The first step in that would be the death of his humanity, which occurred when sacrificed his grandson to fix his mistake.  He didn't care about his grandson or even his daughter when he did that.  They're just going to die in a few dozen years anyway.  And it was at that moment when he realized just how much of a monster he was becoming.

And he doesn't have to be in isolation, that was just an example I threw out there for his self imposed exile from the human species.

Yeah, fan-service... That's the best reason to do anything.  /sarcasm.   Jack really was only a good character in the First season of Doctor Who.  After that, his charm had worn off.  They should write him out on a high note, not keep him on just because a guest appearance would bring in viewing figures.

He still has just under 200,000 years to "disassociate himself fom his identity", who says his transition into the Face of Boe has to happen now? Yes, maybe it does start with this incident, but he's still got a long way to go, including changing pretty much his entire biological makeup. Again, if he had lost his humanity, he wouldn't have felt any remorse over his actions, which he clearly did. Hence him leaving Earth in the first place. Anyway, it was a choice between losing his grandson (and by extension his daughter), or losing 10% of the entire earth's children and allowing the 456 to potentially come back for more in the future. He was going to lose either way, so he took the choice that would benefit the most people. Besides, just because he seems pretty normal when the Doctor introduces him to Alonso in the End of Time, doesn't mean all his problems have been fixed by some drink and the possibility of sex. He could just be acting normal and trying to bury his past actions.

You also have to bear in mind that that scene was only included so the Doctor could say goodbye to all his major companions before he regenerated. Obviously they wanted to show all the companions in a (relatively) positive light so as not to steal the Doctor's thunder. And now that I think about it, we don't even know how much time has passed between the end of CoE and that scene in tEoT. There could chronologically be another whole series of Torchwood between those times, for example. The only real method of gauging it we have is Alonso, but there's no way of knowing how much time has passed since Voyage of the Damned either.

[Lumy]

God, this is completely over your head.  It's about tying up loose ends and closing the story on a high note, not about leaving things unresolved so they can capitalize on it later.  This would have been the most perfect chance to do so but it's obvious they are trying to continue making money off it.

And I really hope they don't make another season of Torchwood. CoE was too good of an ending for them to keep it going.